Why Tire Safety Standards Are Broken (and How to Fix Them)
In Episode 1 of the Around the Bead international series, host Joe sits down with Trevor Adams, Managing Director of TNC Site Services, one of the largest independent earthmover tire service operations in the UK. Trevor shares the story of growing up in a family-run tire business and how TNC evolved from a one-man operation into a global-scale service provider with more than 50 earthmover trucks in the field.
The conversation dives deep into safety, training, and professionalism in the off-the-road (OTR) tire industry. Trevor explains why TNC chose to build and publish its own standards, pursue ISO certifications, and openly share training methods in an industry that often operates without formal rulebooks. Together, Joe and Trevor tackle controversial topics like unsafe repair practices, the risks of solo work, the lack of standardized jacking points on heavy equipment, and why safety often carries a financial penalty instead of a reward.
The episode also explores the severe technician shortage facing the industry, the challenges of training earthmover tire technicians, and why licensing and professional recognition may be the future of the trade
🔧 Topics Covered:
The history and growth of TNC Site Services as a family-owned business
Professionalizing OTR tire service in a largely unregulated industry
ISO certification, quality management, and safety systems
Why TNC publishes its training methods publicly
Apprenticeship-style technician training and solo work safety systems
High-risk tire repair practices and why TNC avoids “quick fixes”
Industry transparency, incident reporting, and learning from mistakes
The global shortage of qualified earthmover tire technicians
Licensing, professional recognition, and the future of tire service
The role of equipment manufacturers in setting safety standards
Show Notes:
Episode: Why Tire Safety Standards Are Broken (and How to Fix Them)
Host and Guest: Joseph & Trevor Adams
Runtime: 1 hour and 34 minutes
Summary: What if the tire industry set its own standards, before regulators were forced to step in? In this episode of Around the Bead, Joe sits down with Trevor Adams, Managing Director of TNC Site Services, to unpack the realities behind tire service professionalism, safety, and skill shortages worldwide. From growing a family-run business into a leading operation, to challenging outdated repair practices and inconsistent safety protocols, Trevor delivers a candid, experience-driven look at where the industry stands and where it’s headed. They dive into technician training, solo-work safety, repair compliance, licensing, labor costs, truck design innovations, and why transparency and brand-agnostic solutions are critical for the future of tire services. This episode isn’t about tires alone, it’s about elevating an entire profession. If you care about safety, standards, technology, and the long-term credibility of the tire industry, this is a conversation you don’t want to miss!!
What You'll Learn:
Why OTR tire service is a high-risk, high-responsibility profession
How standardized training and safety systems can save lives
The difference between compliance and true safety
Why some common repair practices are dangerous, even if they’re legal
How technician shortages threaten critical industries like mining and construction
What it would take to professionalize and license tire technicians worldwide
Links:
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Transcript:
00:00:05
Around the bead podcast, tire talk for trucking, mining, agriculture, and more. Your home for fleet solutions. Aiming to inform, pioneer, and entertain the tire world in connected industries. Sponsored by East Bay Tire, keeping essential industries moving forward. We are back on Around the Bead podcast. I am your host, Joe, the resident tire guy, and today we have a very, very special episode. This is EP1 of our international series, our friends from across the pond. We have Trevor Adams, managing director of TNC Site Services,
00:00:55
arguably one of the largest Earth Mover tire operations running around the world. Trevor, welcome to the show. Are you ready to kick the tires? >> I'm always ready to kick the tires. Yeah. >> You're you're a true tire guy, Trevor, right? You're you've been in the business since a young age. >> Well, I would say my father is the true tire guy. my family around me. I've grown up around it. So, I have great inspiration. So, it's a familyun business started by my mother and
00:01:26
father. The TNC, by the way, is stands for Trevor and Christine, who the name of my mother and father. So, they they started the business way back as a one-man band, solo with the truck. So, I was born into the tire industry. That's what they've been doing all over. So, my life has been in tires. Um, it's it's a it's just been a part of the family. So, I went I was going through the website this week, you know, preparing and and trying to gather some more details, and I thought the TNC part was
00:01:55
very cool, but I just didn't connect the dots. The two of them were mother and father. And I see your dad on on there, you know, uh described as steelely. And uh I I love that portion. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's he's been in this industry is what he does. That's he's he's very innovative. He's always been in this since being an adult. He's been in the tire game. He's been in the service game. He started the TNC as a oneman band, like I say, running from the home. So,
00:02:27
>> as a technician? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> What was his first truck? >> Oh, now you're asking. You see, I I would have to have him in. I If you forgive me, I was I was only just born, so I I wouldn't know. I'd have to judge the archives >> for for our listeners out there and and all those who are interested in TNC. Maybe give us a little brief history of TNC uh from uh conception to 2018 when I think you became managing director. >> Yes. >> And then managing director till now
00:03:04
where you guys run a fleet of of 50 Earth mover trucks around uh the UK. So, it started off as a one-man technician run primarily to go and service local business. And uh and back in the 80s, which would be late '7s, early 80s, that was a that was a 24-hour service with one guy doing the hero work and my mother at home managing the business side of things. And as it's grown up and as that serve always very serviceled, always about making sure the vehicles are running. Always making sure
00:03:36
that the that the the service the actual value proposition is being is being put forward to the customer, delivering the service, getting the machines running, making sure productivity is up. And as that reputation got around, as businesses grow, we open more locations, took on more, invested in more trucks, and it has grown steadily. It's still a privately run company. There's no external venture. It's independent. So, we describe ourselves as the largest UK independent now. And we're still familyowned, still
00:04:08
family run. We still do all of that ourselves. We raise the capital, do the investments, get the trucks going. All the innovation is driven um as a as a privately run family business. And the same ideals that started the business are the ones that we do right now. So, that's that's the overall nature. And it is quality first service done safely, done right, make sure it's fast, reliable, delivered. >> And in in going through uh again the website, um imi, a lmi, hgv, um you guys and you have your own
00:04:48
training videos. Give me a breakdown of what you guys do. You guys are actually ISO certified too. you you guys have more more certifications uh than I've heard of. >> Well, one one of the reasons for this and and we've grown up in this >> the the UK has very very um few uh sort of legislative regulations around the otr off the road tire servicing. There's a lot to do with on the road all truck based and roadbased services. But we we identified that it it is well to coin a term that you'd be
00:05:22
familiar with it' be like the wild west. It was frontier land. There's all things going and people are making their own standards. >> Yeah. >> Um and as we've grown up around that we decided that we wanted to make sure those standards and the standards that we were developing were the best. And one of the things since 2018 that we've really wanted to do is take those standards and make them official. we wanted to actually add to the legislation and bring some protection to
00:05:47
the service. One of the areas that I would consider um a real let down I think from an industry point of view is that we've never professionalized the technical work. >> Mhm. >> It's always been a trades work and stuff that it's necessary um completely necessary and if and if the COVID pandemic taught us anything it was that this is key work necessary. You can't move food, you can't move aggregates, you can't move anything without the kind of work we do. But it's never really had
00:06:15
the respect of a profession. And one of our aims as a company is to professionalize the service that we do. So we've started to adopt standards. And where we didn't have standards or detect them, we've made them. So we've done our best to set them and set them high and live up to them. And part of doing that was bringing in things like um uh quality management and and occupational health and safety standards from an ISO perspective. So we're we're currently ISO 901 45,0001 external audited and all
00:06:46
of our processes are built for quality and safety and we've tried to build them up. So >> So what what's that process like? >> Which process? Sorry. >> Becoming ISO certified. >> Well, you you start with a gap analysis. So you look at what you're doing, you look at what you're trying to aim into deliver and and see how and and how your processes fit into the usual quality cycle. So you define a you define an aim, you set a process, you measure the efficacy of the process and the quality,
00:07:17
and then it's a constant review cycle of feeding iterative improvements back in. So one of the things we would do, for example, is we we monitor the quality of of each of the jobs that come through. We we now we're now we're embedded. We take a sample just so it's not so ownorous, but we take a sample of job quality. We're always looking for where the wins are, where the losses are, where there's been errors or problems. And then we're always looking to feed that back in into our method statements
00:07:43
and our risk assessments. One of the things that you you have to do and and I don't know if this is a something you do in the US, but our health and safety executive for the country insists that we have method statements defined. So all types of jobs you might do have to be defined in advance. How you're going to go about doing them, what the recommended method for doing this is, how you secure an area, how you isolate a machine, all of those things have to be defined in advance and you train them to a
00:08:10
standard. Um, these are often documents that people keep fairly secret and and we took the opportunity to put ours on the website. So all of our methods, how we get the job done, how we use the tools are all available on our side for scrutiny, provide feedback. Um we we really believe that is the way in which you improve the industry. So when it comes to tire work, we've come up with a lot of our methods firsthand in an industry which doesn't doesn't have a rule book and a lot of rule.
00:08:43
>> Yeah. >> No, there's there's no rule book at all. Um, I mean, you've you've said in in in a couple minutes there are a few things that are going to be relatively controversial and polarizing that I really want to dig into. Um, part of the the reason this podcast exists is to bring light to a lot of these things. um to to start discussing that yes, some of the training programs are ultra secret, you know, within organizations and often it's by one person who knew how to do it and then
00:09:16
never updated again. >> So it it's it's value never grows to your point. It never gets scrutinized. It never evolves. Um I think that's huge of you guys to have put all your training videos on the website. >> Videos we've made. We we've just started getting into that. So that's a relatively modern innovation for us. We have a couple of internal training but our methods are available. So our website methods are available. You can actually see the written material every
00:09:43
every guide how we do it what what we do from the moment we turn up on site to the moment we leave how each of those individual machines. So everything from dump trucks to articulated rigid reach stackers at ports anything that's otr that we do we have a method for we create a method and then it's a continual annual um review and evolution of that method to make sure it's still hitting the mark >> is are we improving with new tools are we integrating new technologies are we bringing them in and that's we get all
00:10:13
of our staff to feedback on that >> so I don't want us to forget to come back to the the compliance uh component, the the tradesman issue, the specialty uh uh component to being a tire technician or identifying it as a trade. Uh but tell me about your technician process. I read I read a piece that said you guarantee that a technician will be in the field for one full year before they go out by themselves. Is that did I read that correctly? >> That's that's close. It's not far off,
00:10:45
but it takes about that long, I think, generally to see the amount of work. So, when you imagine taking someone fresh with no tire experience at all, and how do you turn a person who's keen to learn something into someone who can actually go out with the tools and do this work? just to see the amount of all the all all of the the the myriad vehicle types available, all the different types of jobs that you can see, all the vehicles that you know, all the makes and brands and tires, different types of wheels,
00:11:14
all of those things come about and and just for you to even see them, it's almost not business um viable to have all of those bits of equipment as a service provider in your own yard to train on. So there's a lot of what you do here, which is oldfashioned apprenticeship style. You get new people in and you send them out with people who know. >> So you do enough method training and then you've got a buddy system where you where you're actually being taught all of these things until you're able to go
00:11:41
out and do it individually. And and historically some of these jobs may have been twoman jobs, but technology and cranes and handlers have allowed a lot of the work that we do now to be solo, which then brings about all of its own things with solo work and loan workers. And we've got a lot of legislation about safety with those as well. >> What's your guys's legislation on uh uh solo work? >> Generally, a business is responsible for making sure that anyone who's working
00:12:09
alone in remote places, we have a mechanism by which we would check in. >> So you you give a heartbeat system. So if you're alone down a quarry and it's out of hours or there's no one else there, maybe the machine's isolated and you're working alone. If you you will have obviously signed into the site so you hope someone will know that's there but that there is that idea where you're working at the bottom of somewhere remote. We have got now mobile based systems that do a heartbeat
00:12:36
checkin. You can you can determine you know are you still there? Are you still okay? Are you still working? Cuz if they don't respond to that, we have alert systems that will then call the company that we've gone to see. We'll go and check up on and and and then we can go and ask for someone to put eyes on our staff. >> Wow. And this is built into the truck. It's built into their phone. >> It's built into our IT system. So, our phone and our job mechanism has that
00:13:00
baked in. >> Wow, that's impressive. >> Well, it it's there's there's one of those bits there because when you are working alone, it's the the the amount of time between an incident or an accident is is vital for to avoid massive loss or injury and all those all those things that can happen. And if an accident, and we're very fortunate because we haven't had a serious incident that would involve it, which is which is good and one could argue it's because of these things, but but we're
00:13:29
lucky in the sense that in a very dangerous environment, we haven't had a serious issue, but we have a lot of these mechanisms in place. >> And I think you've probably heard this from me before, my stand is that it's a low incident rate industry, high severity incidents. Yes. >> And so we build a false sense of confidence because statistically you can operate your whole entire life uh unsafely and still survive unscathed. >> Yes. >> But if something does happen, it's
00:14:07
catastrophic. It's loss of limb. It's loss of life. And uh where I'm seeing some evolution in the United States, but still typically it's been this way. And maybe this story resonates with you is you have Joe's Tire Shop. Joe's Tire Shop has a half a dozen technicians. And Bob is the number one technician. He's does everything. He can do everything. He was uh learned it all himself. Um, Bob, for whatever reason, can't do the work anymore. And so Joe, owner of Joe's
00:14:44
Tire Shop, he takes the keys, he throws it to Johnny and says, "Johnny, you know, take the take the boom truck, take the hand truck. We got a job to do tomorrow. Figure it out." >> Yeah. >> And Johnny goes out there and Johnny has a mechanical inclination >> and he's been wanting this opportunity. He's been watching Bob for years. He's He really wants the big truck and the big money and the big ego. And so Johnny goes out there and guess what? He stumbles and it takes him eight hours to
00:15:15
do a job that should have taken two hours. Um customer gets build eight hours. Uh and uh Johnny does the job and he comes back and he's booming full of confidence and Joe the tire shop's owner is like, "All right, you're my new boom truck guy." And Johnny does that for the rest of rest of his life and builds this sense of confidence every single day that he completes a job and doesn't get hurt. >> Yes. >> And we're just rolling the dice every single day that Johnny goes out into the
00:15:48
field. >> I have I have a good example of common practice which is just like that. And um uh this this is if we're talking about raising controversial things, this is something that our that TNC site services does as a policy. Statistically, there is no great raft of incidents that that that have that have occurred because of doing this practice. We avoid this practice because we don't think it's a and not just think it's not it's not just a feeling. We we we can measure the the effectiveness with the
00:16:21
big tires. Uh, we don't use plugging repair string and never will. >> It's it's a triage item. It's useful to move a vehicle to a safe place you can do service, but it we wouldn't count it ever as a repair. >> You're talking a a plug patch in which you're pulling it. You're pulling it through the tire. >> I'm I'm on about the kind of string that you might be able to see. So it's it's like rubber string that you ram into a wound and you keep ramming it in until
00:16:51
it holds uh >> Oh, a plug patch. Yeah. Yeah. >> It's not so much a patch. It's just string like rammed in. If you just imagine shoelaces just endlessly rammed into into a wound >> until until it fills a hole. >> Now this is not illegal. It's not in use. It's It's not It's not disallowed um by anything, but we just do not think that it is a good repair. Well, well, one, it isn't a repair. It's It's a little bit like I think my ops directed
00:17:21
likened it to uh fixing a cavity in your tooth with chewing gum. It just doesn't it doesn't work. >> It it it serves some purpose. It's a triage item. you're also increasing the damage and also it's often done quickly and you don't know the extent of the damage underneath the wound. So which which is especially big on on especially important on these large tires which as you describe when they do go wrong they're often catastrophically wrong and and catastrophic to life. So if you're
00:17:52
just if you're just ramming rubber into a wound, you you're effectively as well pressing the wound even even more with pressure to increase the size of the wound. You wouldn't dream of doing this with anything else. It's just just keep ramming more material into a gap. You you're going to create a problem. We don't do this and we never will. We do cold cure patches if it's an on-site repair and we do major vulcanized repairs, but we never plug with with with the plugging string. This isn't
00:18:19
something that's against the law. It isn't something that that that there's legislation to stop. We've just and and it and as you've just explained, it's so important this because the statistics can mislead you. >> There isn't a great raft of history of errors with with people using this stuff either. >> No, there's so many ways with a large tire could go wrong. And if it does go wrong, it will be really bad. I I think we see it more in the United States in
00:18:46
passenger and light truck, you know, as a as a a quick fix. Um I don't we haven't used them in maybe a over a decade, so I I can't say how popular it is. >> Well, you get those phrases like you just uttered there, quick fix. They sound great when you say them. The plugging string is quick. That's true. But but to apply the epitet of fix to it is is probably a stretch too far because you wouldn't count it as fixed by any stretch of of the imagination. It's >> no,
00:19:18
>> it's triage action at best. Not not a fix, but those words sort of become spoken like wisdom in our industry, don't they? They they're pathy. You can wrap them off and people pick them and keep them and then >> it's but it's not a repair. It's not a fix. And we and we wouldn't count them as that either. It's a >> anything else you think that you guys do that's uh that's a rarity in the in the industry over there. >> Something that I mean I'm hearing a lot.
00:19:48
I mean you guys have built your own standards from a repair standpoint. Uh you're you're doing your own training. Um you guys have gotten yourself ISO ISO certified. Uh you've published your your training uh online for everybody to see. Set standards. What what standards do you think need to get set? >> That is a great question. I would like a standardized approach to measuring value of tires. >> I would like the value that that would be superb. We've um but I I tell you one
00:20:22
of the things I would really like is a standardized approach from machine manufacturers to put um >> what manufacturers >> to put jacking points in. >> Oh yeah. So, so you can do all of the training you want when it comes to tire technicians, but when you arrive at a machine, you you're not guaranteed that there is even a place built into the machine to the to the plant machine itself where you could safely jack it from. >> And I and I was alarmed when I discovered this. This seems like easy
00:20:53
things to do. It's so I the only reason I've really become uh focused on this is because of social media >> and uh everybody is a armchair quarterback, loves to criticize, loves to look at pictures and videos and uh our marketing uh team came to me and said, "Hey, you know, we're looking at some of the pictures we take and we get different opinions. ions on the safety of a picture. >> Yeah. >> Right. The there these glasses aren't certified this jacking and it came to
00:21:32
jacking points and my position has been we're going to post what our team is doing, >> right? We're we're going to be authentic in what we post. I know, and I can't name names on the podcast, but I know big major corporations who spend tens of thousands of dollars on marketing their safety and have uh deaths within within their their teams that never get brought to light. Mhm. >> Um, and so on on the on the point of being authentic with your social media, with what you're posting, and maybe you
00:22:05
do get some positive criticism, I say positive, some uh constructive criticism. Hey, that's not a great jacking point, but jacking points have come up a number of times where I look at it and I go, I don't know if I jack it there, but would I jack it over here? And you're right, there is no clear. You almost would think someone would paint the bottom a different color as a simple this is the safest jacking point for this 500,000lb machine. Is is there even a jacking point? Cuz cuz the idea you're
00:22:37
looking for a place to jack it because you have to. But but there's it doesn't mean that they actually built a jacking point into the machine itself, let alone the idea that you could necessarily indicate where the safe spot is. Did is there even one built into it? because we we've definitely come across plant machinery that doesn't have clear jacking points in the design of the machine as though it will never fail. It it just never need jacking at all. It it's a it's an absurdity that that still
00:23:05
can exist in this area and that is improving. Um so these are things that are getting better over time, but you still don't know from one day to the next what you get called out to if that's going to be one that's got one or not. So you're relying on them then the collective wisdom and the history and the method statements that we've had and collected along the way. I'm I'm very disappointed generally. You just mentioned something there that that is often a problem in in the UK. I as I perceive
00:23:33
it when there are bad incidents in incidents in the country we generally keep them quiet. Like companies keep them quiet. is very difficult to learn from unless it gets the news, unless it's got a big health and safety executive investigation or a fine or there's something that would bring it to the public interest. The actual forum to get together and discuss problems is limited in otr. There isn't there isn't really a place to get together and do it. We've tried our best to be as open with standards and and our
00:24:06
methods as we can. We're actually, I think, as good as we can get if there is an incident on site. And we're fortunate. We've never had a serious incident. Certainly no deaths. >> Um, and that's good. But when we do have an incident, whether it's a small collision or a knock or a scrape or there's something that happened, we are very open about it and we work very closely. We've got a dedicated team for just health and safety investigations for feedback and review. It's part of
00:24:31
what we do. >> So, we've got we've got entire staff whose job is to follow up to do to investigate to improve and keep the quality high. That that's interesting. I I agree with you. I mean, I'm seeing some change uh in in the Americas on that. Um the still the big corporations and their subsidiaries, you know, if there's anything any incidents, it's all hush hush. Uh but there are some small groups. Um it just tends to take too long. U there's some great investigators
00:25:04
who uh get involved with tire accidents when it relates to MSHA. MSHA is the Mining Safety Health Administration for the United States. Um, and it's a it's a great compliance and safety organization that was built on the safety of miners many, many, many years ago. And it applies to anybody who comes on site. And so, you must be MSHAW certified to come on site. And the long story short is if there is an accident, if it there's a tire related accident, they do call in a few uh safety and training uh
00:25:40
experts on a tire side to investigate it. But the process is usually it feels like a couple years before any of that information gets out and still it's really really really really hush hush, right? you have to dig and find it and where where where is the information on it? It's not distributed. People don't want to talk about it. Um you you just hit the hit another area which is a bug bear of mine. Um it sounds like you have a is that would that be a federal body? The More You >> Yes.
00:26:16
>> Okay. Yeah, >> we we have some national legislation, but by and large, most of our verification and validation frameworks are commercially run entities. So, we have a few that I won't name them all cuz I don't think that's fair and and especially when I'm criticizing things, but you sign up to them and your customer will sign up to them and you end up having to sign up eventually to all of them because there isn't one framework that rules them all. different uh different businesses sign up to
00:26:47
different validation frameworks and they're all a paid service and you end up it's an industry all of its own where you then put all of your documentation and your coverage and your work and your standards and all of that gets sort of taken in. It goes into a a quantitative sort of checkbox analysis where they score you on something and and then you you achieve some sort of rating um and you either pass or fail to a given standard and and they claim to do all of this stuff for us. So you the the
00:27:15
customers that you serve sign up to one and they'll say right well we want you to be on board with this company with which they will prove your standards and then another customer will go well we use this one. So we end up obviously paying the service fees to all of these different uh frameworks that go along um and it's kind of annoying because it would be nice if we had an otr specialist one um but we don't. There are companies like that in the United States uh that are not tire related, but they're safety and
00:27:48
compliance networks. Yeah. >> And I' I've been really strong in my position that safety and compliance are two completely separate and different things. >> Yes. Um, so it's mo mostly compliance checkbooks uh here and there, but what you're inferring when you when you start talking about paying the fees, which we all do, um, to get that rubber stamp that that corporation needs to have that vendor on site, um, is that safety is incumbent on the dealer. And what defines safe practices?
00:28:29
And at I'll say something uh uh that a lot of people aren't going to want to hear is that it's worth zero zero dollars in value right now is you you can be the best operator versus the brand new operator or somebody without a safety record. And the reality is is in RFP, in an RFQ, it makes zero difference. It's a don't fail industry. So, you go into a mindsite and you fail, yes, you're out. Um, but, uh, unless somebody has history with both and they're looking at two brand new
00:29:08
operators, there's there's no difference. >> I I agree with everything except I would go a little bit further and say it isn't zero. It has a negative. It it actually it it costs you to do all of this properly and you're competing commercially with companies that don't bother and they don't have the cost or expense of a compliance department or a safety investigation team or or anything that improves. So you can you can provide a service that may get something done
00:29:41
today for much less. And if you actually value if you purport to value the service the the safety of the service or the quality of the service that you're buying. Um what do you actually value it as? Because often it's just like I want it but I certainly don't want to pay for it. I want it but I don't it's not worth anything to me. But but it comes with an actual cost to run. So none of doing ISO was free. None of doing any of the things was free. Like you need staff to do the analysis. if you need staff to do
00:30:12
the checks and the and all of the service that comes along. So, we all know those bits, but if you aren't running a health and safety uh department, if you're not running, we call ours health, safety, environment, quality, it's HSQ or HStech and and it covers these four areas. But if you're not actually running or spending any time on that, um well, you you can obviously go in and offer a service at a much because your overheads are just so much less to to deliver deliver the service. And even though there is a sort
00:30:40
of brochure etiquette in into asking for this stuff to be done, it doesn't actually end up being valued anywhere near the actual order book that comes in. So it's it's a it actually if you're going to do it, you you pay a price for holding your own standards. I know that as a fact because we pay to have our standards and we don't necessarily recoup those commercially. Now, there may be some customers who really do value them, but it's in otr, it's still, like I said, it's frontier land. If if
00:31:10
you want to, you can go and get a supplier who will offer to do you the job for with with none of these things backing them up and and they may get you running today and that may do you entirely. And you say Frontier Land, Wild West, you know, the education piece is so important. And again, that's why we're here is to help not just tire dealers and technicians, but fleets be able to look and really audit the safety of an operation, the safety of their vendor, the safety of their tire dealer, their
00:31:43
emergency call. Um, but you're right, it is a it is a net negative. And I think that's why you've seen uh rotation of tire dealers uh over the last few generations is it's uh it's competitively advantageous to come in without those standards. You either be able to make more margin on uh the the higher existing price or to be able to buy the business with a lower price and not adhere to any safety standards, roll the dice until something happens. >> Yes. >> And you either survive and evolve into
00:32:24
becoming more safe or something tragic happens and you don't make it through. >> Well, we we are that story but without the tragedy. We decide we evolved because we can see it coming because you don't have to be there's not a Nostradamus level of clairvoyance required to to know that something is going to happen if you roll the dice enough and and we evolved without the need for that. So it was a decision we undertook. >> I still worry about it every day. >> Yes. I mean, I think we have safe. We we
00:32:54
we do everything we can, but I know it doesn't always happen. And I think about it every day that is is today going to be the day that I'm going to get that call, you know, and I do get the call and it's okay. We had we had this incident and that incident and it's and it's okay. We do we do truck tires. Um, but I'd almost argue that uh with uh smaller tires, they're more inherently d they're more not inherently dangerous, they're more dangerous because people
00:33:21
pay less attention to them than they do an earth mover tire. The bigger tire makes makes people uh wake up, makes people pay attention. Uh but you could be catastrophically hurt by 18850 by 8. Yeah, >> it's that that's a because because I've actually said the opposite to that, but I think I think in different contextes they're both true. I I know from speaking in schools to a lot of young people trying to encourage young people into the industry. Um, a lot of young people think the tires on the large
00:33:50
machines are just indestructible. They they can't imagine them breaking. So, so they they actually have no concept the idea that something this big, this dump truck, the tire on it, they just think it would roll over anything and they can't imagine anything piercing it or breaking it or or rendering it damaged in any way. So, the idea when you start telling young people, you know, this is a job, you we have to take the tires off these things and fix them and repair them and put them back on, they just said, well, why
00:34:22
would you ever need to do that? You just buy the buy them with tires on and it's like a tonka truck. They just last until until you're done. So getting some of those conceptions out for people, they see those large machines, they just think huge means indestructible >> and it's it's an odd thing to do. Whereas they can appreciate a car tire will roll over a nail >> and punctures no problem. It's like what could it possibly roll over? You're showing pictures of tire damage and it's
00:34:52
>> it shocks them. >> It shocks them entirely. Yeah. So to to the lay person, I think the the opposite assumption is often true. They're indestructible. How why do you ever need to service them? So, I'm going to I'm going to piece off of that because bringing uh youth into the industry uh you know uh building building more technicians um it's a niche industry, >> right? I mean, I I I try and make this point and put some perspective out there. There's 28 million uh replacement
00:35:28
truck tires sold in the United States every year. If every technician mounts, you know, uh, call it 14 tires a day, you know, you're you're talking about a population less than the astrophysicists in the United States. >> There's less there's less tire technicians that do commercial tires than there are astrophysicists. >> Um, >> yeah, I would hazard a guess in the UK right now, and and this is a discussion I have with with my operations director all the time. like how many of them are there in the
00:36:02
workplace in the foot in just across all of the the country and I think I think it would be incredibly generous to say there's a hundred qualified trained technicians. I I don't think there'd be a hundred and and what is the population is like 55 to 60 million or something like that. I think there might be a hundred qualified otr earth move text and at any point in time we might have between 25 and 30 of so across all of the others. Now that doesn't mean that there are more people
00:36:36
who may be doing the work but I'm on about people who who you would consider to be competently trained who have had the necessary prerequisite skills. Of course, you can you can contract several people in a small van to go and do the the the work, but but you wouldn't generally if you were serious. >> Um, but I'm talking about people who could do the job with the tools. 100 would be generous. I could even go as low as 75 though >> for the country. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, it's in in terms of getting more
00:37:08
people. I don't I don't know if people are aware of what the skill shortage is and the cliff edge we're racing to if we don't cuz because a lot of the skilled people are are not young. They are experienced solidly worked mature hands who know who know what to do. I I'm actually rather optimistic uh based on the the previous statement that we can bring in a lot of skill and that's because we don't have to bring in that much, right? It's there's to to your point, you got a hundred, okay, you
00:37:46
bring in 10 10 new technicians, 10 new tire fitters, that's huge. It's 10% increase. uh areas like mining and construction and steel work um they need millions. So we only need we only need 10. Um and we're always trying to think of okay what's what's the mindset that parallels well with a tire technician. Somebody who is can work alone safely who can be aware of their surroundings. Um the phones are I think are toxic. you know, uh, you're you're it it just drags you out of your focus, out of your
00:38:26
mental space where you need to be in knowing your surroundings. Um, but, uh, I think there I think there are positions out there. I think there are young people who have those skill sets that are coming, uh, from mechanical backgrounds, uh, coming from military backgrounds that fit the position really, really well. It's just about giving them a career that's worthwhile. >> Yes. I I think everything you just said there, I mean I I concur completely. In addition, one of the challenges I
00:39:03
would say and and this might be true of the US market too. The job is such a composite role and it's composed of of separate skills combined together that make one career. And unfortunately for those who want them combined, at any point in time you get qualified in any of the separate skills, it's also a job all of its own. So to be an earth mover otr tire technician, you've got to be able to drive a truck, a heavy goods vehicle, a HGV truck. >> That is a career all by itself as well.
00:39:37
So while you are a trainee tire technician, you are now a fully qualified holage vehicle driver and it's a good career and you can go and jump into it straight away. So if you don't want to be a trainee earth mover, tire fitter, you are a fully qualified HTV driver. >> Yeah, >> you could go and you could go and haul uh long road jobs all you want. The same with the crane. You you have to be a crane operator. The army crane operator you mentioned earlier on is the crane certification you do. Crane operation is
00:40:07
a job and and if you want to go and have a job as a crane operator, well, you can go and do that the moment you're qualified as a crane operator. So before you can get into the otr tires, you you have these training steps which are all solidly good rewarding careers and they are appealing to people if you want the money or you're young and you want to get on the on the ladder quickly. So you're a HV driver. You can drive up to 32 ton vehicle with a crane, lorry mounted crane. And now you got to
00:40:37
operate the crane. That's a job, too. You've not even got into the tires yet, but you can drive the vehicle and operate the crane. And then you're a trainy tire fitter. >> But you've got so many options to get out of your chosen career path for a rewarding pay you pay you full salary today for the full job that they need during your training period. And that is that that is the nature of a composite role like this because when when we say an an earth mover tire technician, it is layered and composed
00:41:10
of at least three separate well-paying careers that at any point in time of your training mechanism, you could hop off your route onto another career and be entirely rewarded um and and start earlier than you could. And because of the low numbers you need, it is very costly for educational institutions to get on board. So I don't and again I don't know we have a we have a the national education system that we have in the UK and the apprenticeship scheme favors cohorts of students that a
00:41:42
college could push through in a technical uh vocational skill like plumbing or electricity or something like that. They they have cohorts of students which which are fundamentally financially viable for them to do. So they want 50 or 60 students in an area to go and you'll train this many plumbers or electricians. I don't think there's enough work in the country to have that many earth mover tire technicians. So you don't so all of the training cost goes on to service providers themselves and nobody wants to
00:42:09
pay for that because the commercial environment is so tight and the competition is there that you have to fund all of the training yourself. Do you think that is is our next endgame is some sort of certified vocational positions? >> Yes. >> That's that's enforced uh through industry or government compliance. >> Yes. Well, I I've just recently enlisted well enrolled TNC site services into our national tire distributors association of which we sit on the council for and
00:42:48
part of that body's function is to generate licensing. >> So I would actually like it to be a licensed profession. >> Mhm. And >> what what's a profession that would be comparable like I and I and and I'd love to talk about that because I think there's a lack of uh there's a desire for to fulfill some ego and some pride from the tire tech position that it doesn't get the it doesn't get the respect that other roles do that do have licensing or some sort of compliance
00:43:23
stamp. Um and that hurts. It's it's you watch a guy who's a fantastic operator um who uh you know doesn't doesn't get that accolade that other roles do. Um >> I would like I would like to run that by a little thought experiment for people who might be listening later because it's I think it generally holds up and it and it probably will culturally as well. You imagine three guys in a bar or a pub and they're talking and and they're each a profession. You've got an electrician, a plumber,
00:43:59
and a tire fitter. And and ask anyone listening to this scenario, in in what order would you rank them in most kudos to least. And I don't know generally where the plumber and the electrician will fare in most people's estimates, but anyone I ever ask that to, >> the plumber and electrician are always either first or second. >> Yeah. >> But the tire fitter is invariably third, which makes no sense to me. You're dealing with pressurized air canisters essentially or gas containers or you're
00:44:41
dealing with home gas systems. you're dealing with tires that are that are inflated to 145 PSI and they can blow up and explode and if the rims take you it's dangerous stuff across the board, but for some reason and and and and I can't pinpoint exactly why, but I think it's true in England and the United Kingdom that that would almost always be true and I think it's a travesty that that would always be true because there is no reason technically why it should be true. They are all vital professions.
00:45:11
You don't want a bad electrician. You don't want a bad gas engineer. And you don't want a bad OTR tire fitter at all ever. >> No, you don't. Yeah. So, licensing, you think, is is the future? >> I think it's one possible future and a route through to protecting and professionalizing. If you want people to if you want people to respect a profession, then it has a body that licensed the skill. It has the equivalent of a board. You've got to have some standards being upheld and
00:45:42
you've got to be able to be struck off if there's consequences. We we would expect this from many other types of professions where from architects to surgeons to electricians and gas engineers whether they're gas safe or there's always going to be someone who who knows what they're doing who isn't certified and there's always going to be a market for people who want those people. But generally out there in the world when we think something matters we standardize. we put standards around it
00:46:07
and a professional body around it and run it to to some externally recognized level. And that's what I would like to see in the profession, getting the the salaries to where they should be. The the idea that if you have a license, it matters. It should matter if you have it. So, if you're going to make that important, I I am all for it. I think it's necessary. I think it's an important part of the evolution of of our industry. where where I would probably and I I still have to think on this concept. you
00:46:42
know, adding adding government oversight to anything is hard for me, but uh if if I were to give a recommendation on where this could go and could go fast is partnering with the equipment manufacturers is it's it it's going to be hard to get enough tire dealers together. uh from a tire manufacturer standpoint, there's uh little incentive uh for them. Maybe on the premium end there's some, but if you're even even on the medium truck commercial side, if you're a freight liner, a Kenworth, or
00:47:23
on a heavy equipment side, a Volvo, a Caterpillar, a Kamasu, you want qualified technicians checking those wheel components, making sure that you're not running into indexing issues, using the prop proper torque uh torque tools on those lug nuts because you don't want an issue with your equipment. >> Yes. >> And it's not it's they're not going to have tire fitters out there. It doesn't make sense for them. There's not scale. There's not volume for them to run it.
00:47:56
Um but uh for them to support the licensing, I think that's what would incentivize all parties to get on board. That's where you would get the buy in of, okay, hey, where is the proper place on this machine to jack it up. Um, and you get buyin from customers because they're really looking at the Volvo dealer, the CAT dealer, uh, the Freightlininer dealer for the expertise on what's right for their piece of equipment. >> I think so. The the your point on government oversight is
00:48:31
well, you're not going to get any arguments from me. I think I think that is always going to be a concern. The the the point I would raise to that I think is that if I was going to ask for government involvement, it is literally only this thing. Like anytime government gets involved in commercial matters, it's almost always tragic. It's a bad idea. But if you were gonna if you were going to get the government to do anything, I would like you to enforce the contracts that say if you claim
00:49:01
this, it means something. So if you're selling services and you're selling a product or a service to market and you make a claim, it should mean something, you know, and and that's where I want the government to say, well, when they say this, they that that is a thing you can hold someone to. And that would actually level level the the marketplace out so that you can always find a non-certified person to do anything. Like let's not let's not kid ourselves into thinking that any amount of
00:49:35
government oversight or a standards upholding or contract upholding would remove the informal marketplace. There will always be a guy who knows a guy who can do a thing and there'll always be people who have got a little bit of cash to get a guy who can do a thing. So that will never go away. But in the professional marketplace, if you claim something to be true, we we are standards. We are a high standard, high quality, we do this job. if you claim it, you should be able to be held to it. >> So, I I I don't disagree, but my my fear
00:50:08
with any of it, and I would put that more on you as somebody who sets standards, who's an innovator, who's who's leading your industry and market over there, is the government will set the standards, but then they'll also make their own standards that you may not agree with. And so you're as once you create that entity that body then there is somebody who needs to justify their position and that is not a Trevor Adams that is somebody who generally has never touched a tire or who is is looking to build
00:50:45
their own team and so they could create standards that you don't feel are safe and that's the risk of >> the license has to be run by the distributor's agency not that so It has to be enforced by government. The contract has to be upheld by the government in law >> but not as a standards setting body. So you go to industry for the standards. So you get industry complicit um sorry not complicit the implicit and explicit approval of the standards. You build it as an industry which is what
00:51:19
we're doing. So we join in in a forum with the industry. You then say the industry goes here is a great standard and then the only thing you really need government involvement for that is to enforce it but the but the standard is this is the industry standard and approved and checked and done. The only thing you really ever want government to do is to enforce contracts and and enforce the rules with which we all agree to play by >> but but have the industry set the standard. And that's why I like forums.
00:51:47
This generally happens with in in other areas especially in medical. There's a board of surgeons, there's a board of psychologists, there's a board of everything else. The government don't set those standards. >> But we can have our own industry standards and then say that's what we mean. And if you're going to say that we follow them, >> this is what you better be able to demonstrate, show, and prove. Cuz if you're going to claim it, you better be able to do it. cuz if you're claiming it
00:52:14
and pulling the wool over people's eyes, you're a villain. >> We should we should sort that out as soon as we >> We should I I'm with you on that. I I like that thought process. I would reiterate that uh bringing the equipment manufacturers in. >> Yeah. >> Is a massive massive component. >> Well, and the customers, the end users. >> Absolutely. Yeah. What do they expect? What do they expect uh on site? Um, but if I had to pick a a board uh to set these, it would be Caterpillar, Volvo,
00:52:50
Kamasu, Laybear, um some of the biggest mining companies uh on the planet, and uh a handful of tire industry experts, whatever they may be. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. >> That would be my view. But the license is the future. I think if you're going to if you're serious about professionalizing, make a professional body of it. >> Yeah. Okay. Um, can we talk about trucks? >> Yeah. >> You guys have cool trucks? >> I think so. >> So, uh, uh, I I've been I've been dying
00:53:27
to ask this question. Okay. Why a rear mounted crane? Because so in in in in North America we have a lot of uh front mounted crane and is a lororry L O R R Y is that referencing a rear-mounted crane? >> A lorry a lorry is just a truck. So we would interchange lorry and a truck. Yeah. >> Whereas a truck might just be the cab bit if you refer to that as a truck. But but a lorry is perhaps a fixed bed flatbed on the back as well. So, that is just I think that's just a a cultural term. A lorry driver and and a
00:54:04
HV truck driver. Pretty interchangeable. >> I'm going to use that this week just to throw people off. >> Okay. >> Uh the uh Okay. So, but you guys you guys run rear-mounted cranes. You guys run a unique color on your truck. You guys have actually innovated uh a 360 degree articulated hand. >> Yeah. >> Um tell me give me give me something on trucks. Well, I guess to address your first question, you you asked about the crane fitted at the rear. >> Yeah. >> So, this is one of those areas where
00:54:35
again you learn through experience cuz some some were mounted at the front, some are mounted at the rear. But the main the chief benefit of a rear mounted crane on the vehicle is that it gives access to a work area at the rear. Like there's there's all the the the work area at the back of the truck which you can't access if your crane is behind the cab. >> Mhm. There's also a problem there of of damage to the cab. Like you're restricting the space and availability you have if the crane is buted right up
00:55:05
against the cab. So we've traditionally now mounted our our cranes at the back of the of the truck because it maximizes the amount of work space you have for safe working. Whereas if you if you move the crane right up to the cab, you don't. you you cut off your your space and you increase risk of damage to the to the cabs. So, a front mounting doesn't offer you that. Um, and you don't you don't want to be damaging the cab while you're operating it. So, I think the standards in the say
00:55:38
standards, not the standards, the the typical uh setup in the United States is to run a any sort of service truck parallel to the equipment that you're working on. Is that still the case with a rear mounted crane? You're just pulling forward to that uh advance of that wheel position. >> Yeah, generally parallel is still is still the route through, but as with everywhere, you don't always have this ideal space or the ideal position. >> Um but but even if you're not, you're
00:56:07
still running the risk of turning the crane behind the cab. And and if and if any errors are going to come, why risk the driving position of the truck? Like there's there's nothing you would have to do. Plus, you you can put stabilization legs out on on the rear of the truck and gain the full weight of the cab at the front as well. So, you you get a little bit of extra distribution. >> Is that pretty standard in the UK to have the rear mounted crane? >> I believe it is. And I think Australia
00:56:40
too from what I've seen. Um, a a lot of the the I was just speaking with some of our colleagues in Australia >> and they're they're running rear mounted cranes as well. >> Um, so it's been certainly standard on our vehicles now for as long as I can remember. >> The and I think uh Chile as well. Um, with Australia and Chile, I I think a component that made that switch is uh the on-road regulations, right? For us, we're looking a lot at uh I would assume the same as UK uh onroad
00:57:14
regulations, domestic traffic. Um but Australia, Chile, huge mining area. Same thing I would assume with Canada. Why not just get the bigger truck with the rear-mounted crane that's got a 28k hand on it? Um and you can put you can do everything with it. >> Well, that's a good question for all of those places, but I'll tell you why you don't do it in the UK. Because the road network isn't designed for big expansive. It's just not Canada. It's not Australian. It's not American.
00:57:43
>> We got to get there and and we've got to get there through some pretty old roads which are which are quite narrow in some respects. So we actually have a fleet of vehicles from 32 ton down to 3 1/2 ton. So so we can get to where we need to be in the most efficient manner possible. What kind of what kind of kilometers what kind of mile mileage are you getting out of those power units out of those trucks now? >> Um well our range we we we can move them as as in terms of distance traveled from
00:58:14
their base. >> No lifetime of the truck. >> Oh well what we would likely do is is get between three and five years and then roll them over anyway. >> Oh really? >> Yeah. the power unit, but you would keep the the bed in the hand. >> Well, yeah. Yeah, you get the the truck would you could change over. You might a bit longer, but you you might take it over, but we build them all ourselves. >> So, the the the mileage of the truck, but you you don't want to keep a truck
00:58:42
till so you don't want it to cost you money >> essentially. >> No. And and I think that's uh a challenge that we've seen with labor pricing. >> Um is uh my my position has been nobody knows whether they make money on on their labor pricing or not. Uh and if they knew that they were losing money on their labor pricing, they would they would price it completely differently. But trying to calculate what it costs you to o own a truck, run a truck, you know, the technician that goes along
00:59:17
with it. Most people don't spend the time to look at that. So labor is just a number on the board. We'll just guess this. Um, and it's a completely different cost function if you plan on keeping that truck for 10 years or if you're turning it over in three to five. I'm I'm smiling as you're saying it because these are these are my spreadsheet levels of hell that I get stuck in as I go because I I have an idea about how much labor I would need to charge to pay money but it is in no way market
00:59:49
tenable. >> No. So, so that there is a there is a mixture of other areas where you have to then get your margin and markup out of tire sales plus other things that that is a that is a tumultuous um area of of concern for me and and so much to get into in terms of labor rates. Even the word labor, going back to the the usage of words the day, we use labor rates in the UK, too. And it's >> it's so insufficient as a term for what you're buying, >> especially especially when you're paying
01:00:23
by the hour. Like, it's >> I I like I like you saying that. We do need a different term because uh it it it basically denominates the individual in the work to that's manpower. It's whatever dude I can pick off the street. That's labor. >> Yeah. I'm breaking rocks or something. I'm moving wood from one place to the next or something. >> Yeah. >> It's what are you getting when you buy? Because because one of the issues with market labor here and and and I know
01:00:55
we're just taking the brief tangent from the truck talk, but I think it's important while I'm thinking about it is what it costs to move a truck out and get a guy. So you're not really having labor. You're getting a technician and a vehicle. You're at least getting a technician and a vehicle. >> Yeah. >> And then and then pricing is never designed to align needs. And I think the creative industry has known this for a long time because if you bill if you build a company by the hour to make a
01:01:21
commercial, they then say, "Well, how long is it going to take you to make?" So, so they want the hourly rate, then they want it the quickest possible it can possibly be because that keeps the price of the project down. >> Yeah. >> Where whereas in reality it's like, well, what do you value the most? I'm going to get a technician out. It's like, well, you value getting your vehicle up. You want that done quickly, but you only pay me by the hour. So, it's actually if if it's in my interest
01:01:46
to not go quick, like it's in my interest to take my time and and and to and to spread that out. >> We're in that problem all of the time. >> I'll I'll I'll I'll try and challenge us to try and improve our our value proposition and how we describe what services we do. But you're uh you touch on a very sensitive subject uh which is yes if it's at an hourly rate uh the better technician that may have a health safety and uh quality team behind them in order to do it costs more does it
01:02:27
faster and and makes less. And this is a a a story uh that I tell our team is it took me it was probably 10 years ago and a customer calls up and uh they don't they hadn't used us and they said you know such and such tire dealer has been out at this job site. We've got a loader down and they've been out there four times and uh uh four separate calls two over two days and they haven't been able to fix this tire. um can you guys come out and do it? And so we send our our top guy out there. Um
01:03:06
he goes out, he goes through all the processes, cleans the rim, uh you know, checks all the components, puts a new O-ring on it, and that's all it needed is a rim rim cleaning and an O-ring. Um which is is as basic as it gets uh from an Earth mover standpoint. And at the time, this might have been longer than 10 years ago, we charged an we were charging an hour and a half minimum and I think it was like $99 an hour. Um, and we didn't have the business uh because our competitor was uh $79 an hour and uh they were in a a
01:03:46
beat up old pickup uh you know with uh no training whatsoever. And uh my guy comes back, he did it in, you know, 45 minutes, right? And we charged an hour and a half minimum. And uh the team's pumped like, "Hey, this is a customer we can get." And we showed how awesome we are. But I sat in my office uh that night uh thinking to myself, who's running a better business? They're we we made we we an hour and a half at 99 with a still at the truck at the time was $125 $145,000 plus the training plus the highest paid
01:04:26
technician and the competitor was running $14 an hour in a beat up truck and build hour and a half minimum four separate times six hours and didn't get the job done. And I went, "Something's incredibly wrong here. We have to figure out how to prove our our purpose and our value. What did we save that customer in uptime?" Um, there's just a lot of improvements that need to get made there. Otherwise, we're going to get our butts kicked. >> Yeah. Well, you and to answer your I
01:05:00
mean, I I think it was a rhetorical question, but it it was interesting. Anyway, who's running the better business? Defend depends by what definition of better you you go for. and and that is always like if he's making money that's fine but is the purpose of your business just to make money I'd say that'd be a very cynical approach nowadays obviously businesses need to make money to function >> but in terms of are you making the world a better place are you doing the job
01:05:25
well are you are you providing are you doing it in a way which it should be done the these are all the questions I try and answer too and I know as a business runner I run a risk by by always going there but I couldn't do it any other way personally I just couldn't I couldn't do anyway. I want it to be as good as it can be and and I still have to make a living doing it, >> but everything you just described is my entire day every day. That that is where we're at because we're probably we're
01:05:54
probably at the higher end of the price in our market. And we we run that all of the time in a price sensitive market where the iron triangle no longer seems to apply. the the the speed, quality, price triangle where you can have two. >> Undoubtedly, it is time for those that care about our people, our customers. It's time for us to improve our value proposition. >> Yes. >> Uh and and show it and prove it. >> Yeah. >> So, talk let's let's talk about trucks.
01:06:27
Uh tell tell us about the uniqueness of your trucks. Well, we the the the beauty about the truck is for everything that we do, there is no offthe-shelf truck, you can't buy one ready to go. Um, so and because you have to customize them, you can't lease them. So, as a business, it's all private investment because the moment you modify, you can't lease. So, all of our trucks are our own investment. We buy the trucks and we build the trucks ourselves and we modify them. That has been a true um evolution over
01:07:03
the years. Chiefly um the brilliance of my father. My my father does a lot of the brainstorming and the work and and uses our suppliers and works with the suppliers to get the ideas in. So let me just have a little think. So we we've been we've been running obviously over the years we've had the cranes then we've had the cranes that the that rear mounted. We've had cranes with hooks on. And as we realized then as things evolved, you don't want to be using hook tire hook cranes to do tire work. So
01:07:33
then you start having the handlers. >> Um and and handlers were a pretty restricted item in the UK. There was only like one manufacturer or maybe two. Um and they they weren't evolving much as the as the business and the industry went on. Nothing to do with with the standard of the company or anything but just in the needs of the industry. It's very niche and it wasn't getting the development it needed. Um, so the manufacturer of tire sort of handlers hadn't changed in over a decade
01:08:02
and we were finding there was times to do it. So for example, there's modifications we needed to make. >> Our cranes are designed to push. >> Most cranes off the shelf when you buy a crane. Yeah. >> Well, you you know from tires that it's useful to be able to push. >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. But most cranes by default are engineered for lifting. They're engineered for lifting weights upwards. >> Oh, a crane. Crane. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, so the the cranes that we fit
01:08:32
to the trucks, ours have been modified so that they can effectively push as well. So, if you want to break beads or push things on or move things on, most of most of our cranes now, I think all of them are designed and and modified to be able to push, which is not something you get with an offthe-shelf crane. But if you look at a regular crane and look at our crane, you wouldn't spot the difference. I wouldn't. I'm I'm a I'm a lay person when it comes to this stuff. So, everything I've picked up from my
01:08:59
father over the years is just what I've been told and he knows and understands and I see it. But you you sometimes want to use a crane to push, break a bead, do whatever you've got to do. And most cranes off the shelf, if you do that, you will break the crane. You'll break the crane pretty quickly by overstressing it, the engineering of a crane in that direction. >> And so, you guys have re-engineered it to push and pull. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We working with our engineering suppliers. So, so the the
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crane can push and pull. And then the handler itself is is something that we've done uh most most recently. We we unveiled the latest modification of that which was the um hinged arm that that has a much broader maximum and minimum range. So, you can do a much wider selection of tire sizes on it. And also does 360° rotation. um uh which is which is one of those things that we've done recently and any sizes but I think they go up to four four and a half tons now we've got two and a half ton variants and one and a
01:10:01
half ton variants >> and so the new design for this sorry >> that hand is uh like down to a 1220 up to a 456545 a 992 tire >> I think I'll do a 39 might do the 40 yeah I think >> so it'll the new design gives greater flexibility in terms of tire sizes. It it can assist in handling multi-piece accessories as well, which is which is one of those things. >> I think those things are a must though. I mean, we we can't the industry can't support all these specialty cranes and
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specialty trucks. The trucks have to be more versatile and multi-purpose in order for it to be sustainable cost. >> Yeah. Well, this is one of the reasons we we would roll them over as well because there's still value in the truck afterwards. So be before you've run it into the floor like you don't you don't kill it like you you don't you sweat the asset hard but then strip it down. So we we we wouldn't ideally want to send a full working truck out into that place cuz
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it's better to strip the bits that you can still use. But the chassis and the moving and the working is something we would roll over. How long does it take you to build the truck? Oh well, I think how long is the lead time for components and and COVID really threw that off like the availability of cranes. So getting a truck isn't too difficult. That can be six months, >> eight months sometimes. Um but we we've had long lead times on the availability of cranes. >> Are you planning trucks out a year, two
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years? >> Yeah, two years. One and two year plans for trucks. So, we'll be retiring the existing fleet, bringing new ones in. That's a rolling forever part of our ongoing cost. They're they're an ongoing cost and and um investment every year. So, we're always recycling, renewing, rolling them over, selling, buying new, and then building new um to keep to keep them fresh, to keep them good, and to make sure that they're it's a viable fitting. We've we've actually been on the tough
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end of that when when the business was doing less well where you don't do that and when you start running old trucks your costs just become >> well workable and unguessable in that you can't predict them. >> I unguessable I think is the the most critical component. you you may not have a payment on that truck anymore, but uh they're they're so volatile and the downtime can be so significant. Um I mean that's uh that's essentially what we are to customers in many cases
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is insurance providers. We're the we're the service provider for insurance. >> Uh okay, vehicle's down, go fix it. We we can't afford to have old trucks that aren't reliable because we're the ones being relied upon. >> Yes, that's exactly the point that we take. You you keep the fleet good. We've got our three pillars, we call it. >> We've got our We got our technicians, we got our fleet, and we got our management ethos. >> I saw that on the website. That was
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cool. >> Yeah. If you don't have all of them, then it everything is less. Like good trucks are great. good fitters, you need them. But if you don't wrap all of that up in in a desire to do the right thing, the right service, and the right management approach, there's some compromise that will sneak in. >> Trevor, when uh when was the moment for you that you felt like you wanted to do this? You loved this industry. On the show, we call it uh uh your big dog energy, your BDE.
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uh when you were like, "Hey, I I I'm I'm fully vested in being a tire guy." >> I It's It's great when you hear those phrases. I I can't imagine anyone who knows me would describe me as a big dog in any sense. Um but but have big dog energy. Well, for me, it's more of a long it's a long game cuz I grew up in it. So when when the only thing I wanted to do when I was a young boy >> and back in the days in the UK where there was no health and safety really
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and as it was a family business growing up occasionally I would be out on the truck with my father. >> Yeah. >> As a boy and I'd be in the cab and I'd be watching him do his thing. There is that time in every son's life I think when they're looking at a father who has purpose and a mission who does things and that's all you can imagine doing. It's all you want to do. So I I can remember very early that feeling coming in where I used to watch that happen. And that was all I thought I would ever
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grow up and be. I would be and do what he does cuz it looked great. He was using the cranes, big tires, it looked fun. Big trucks and I used to see the stuff that no other kid that I went to school with ever saw. >> So there's there's this really early memory where it's like that's what I want to be. and and I actually had a go at being a technician. Um, and that was when I learned something really quite important about myself and and and is and that is I have no proclivity for
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practical skills at all. Um, but but you but I found out by trying, you know, >> I I I can barely hang a picture, so hammering a nail into a into a wall would be a problem. I I just I don't know what it is. It's one of those things. I pick up tools and I just make mistakes and errors and it's not where I'm good. >> You know oneself. That's a good power to have. >> You got to know oneself. I know where my strengths are. Um so I was always very good at the analysis and admin. So I I
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then after not helping out with the tire technician stuff, my mother of course the C in TNC was running the business financially systemsbased analysis of things taking all of as the businesses growing up and I found I had a proclivity towards that kind of work and then you you asked me when when was that come I said it was a slow boil this there's they then my parents encouraged me to just go and see the world and do other things. So instead of just being in tires forever, I I went and did other things.
01:16:26
So I finished college and I went to university and and I did a computer science degree. I became a teacher. I've been a teacher, a university lecturer. I taught computer science. I have a masters in AI and went around the world and I did tech talks and other bits and pieces as well. So I had a great prof I had a great career as a teacher which I loved thoroughly for a long period of time which got me into a lot of research into other areas and sectors. I did a lot of image manipul not manipulation
01:16:56
image processing and um my main area of interest was completely unrelated computer games programming but that taught me how to do visualizations and virtualizations and simulations cuz this the skills are the same. So having come through this I then eventually get back to the family business which I've never left. I've always been involved in it but I was doing other things and then I've been able to bring the things that I know back into what we do. And then since that was 2012 and since then I've built
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custom software for tire analysis. I do a lot of our models for improving tire products and wear and performance. How to turn on rim. So when you say when did I know I've always wanted to be involved in tires where did I find where I could be most useful it's when I came back to it with a set of skills that I could really develop and so when you start talking about building the value proposition my main mission now is to understand the modeling of tires on vehicles to such an extent where I can explain the value
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proposition in clear terms. So let's talk about that because you we started this podcast you said something and I don't have the direct quote yet uh that we need in improvement either on tire performance or measuring tire performance. >> Oh yeah. Well standards standards related to performance. >> We we need to improve tire performance. That should be a given. But both of those things are true because the act of measuring is all models based as well. Yeah. So, so if I use a very contrived example,
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there is a model by which I can estimate the miles difference between our two locations now on the planet, but there is an actual diff like an actual distance, but there's no way that we'll actually know the exact distance, but there's a model by which we could probably get there pretty close. Yeah. >> So, >> a lot of the ways in which we measure tire performance are crude >> and and and they're very crude. So, the the measures the measuring mechanisms have to improve. But but in and and as
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as a consequence of that, the actual performance should should know because there's a lot of claims made and and this is where I think the manufacturers are doing great work across the industry because they're doing tons more, especially the bigname manufacturers, the premium brand manufacturers are doing lots of work on their value proposition as the market increasingly sees an influx of cheaper alternative products. Um and and if you discount the environmental concerns about that kind
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of take that out of the value proposition for a moment, what is the price point that you would look at in terms of of of those models and Michelin's done great work on this, Continental's done great work on this, Bridgestone, all like Goodier all do great work on this kind of stuff. And uh for all the ones I've just missed out because I'm aware that could it's commercially one of those things. If I just say all of the main manufacturers are doing great work in it and I'm
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trying to get the stuff on the ground to happen as well because we're in the best position as service providers to help our customers get the best out of their fleet to the point where they could say well we we've actually got some of our customers down to the point now where we can fix price it. So we've had some customers for like 15 20 years now. We know their fleets well. We know how much it cost to maintain them. >> We know how much it cost to run. We can actually say we we can do all of your
01:20:28
tire work for x amounts per hour. Just forget it then. We can actually get the model down now. And and that's working. And and I know that cost per hour isn't something we invented, but our model for getting it there is getting better and better. And the things that you can bake into a cost per hour model. You're you're saying that you can model out uh a cost, call it a cost per month for tire service and uh tires because you're projecting out all the wear of this tire is going to
01:21:01
run at this rate. It's going to cost this much on this machine and this is how much you run that machine and this is how many times we're going to have to change it. And you could theoretically estimate their annual bill. Yeah. And we do we we do this. So, but we don't do it per month. Well, you end up billing them per month, but we actually do it per machine hour. >> The the the machines run per hour, and it's it's x amount of currency per hour. So, if you run your fleet per hour, we
01:21:28
can we can actually bake it down to that >> and actually start delivering those tires. So, unless there's damage, damage doesn't get included in this. So if there's if there's an accident or damage, but in the in the course of a tire's life, you can manage a fleet well enough that you can say, "Forget about raising orders or breakdowns or just just deal with us. We've got this down. You run your machine for this long. We'll bill you x amount of dollars or pounds sterling per hour and we'll and
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at the end of every month, we'll we'll bill you for that." >> You guys So you guys are doing that type of billing now. >> Some customers really like it. Yeah. like did they >> I would imagine so. Yeah. >> Yeah. We've got that. You can't do it with a new customer because you got to have a little bit of history. You've got to know how the tires perform and what product selection to use. But the moment you've dealt with someone a while, >> you can you can really know their fleet.
01:22:21
We inspect. We see it running. We do product selection. And then we can start saying, "Look, we know your ground surface. You know, we know your applications. We we know where you're running the tires. So if you if you have this operation the way we know it now given these conditions we know we we'll fix that cost for you and and it just removes the entire thing. It's great for us because you know that what we were talking about earlier on where an hourly rate doesn't align the customer's needs with the
01:22:51
service provers's needs. So you're always at odds, right? So they want a cheap hourly rate and the job to be done as quick as possible, which is not in the service provider's needs. But when you get this cost per hour function right, it is incumbent on the service provider to service the fleet as well as they possibly can. The better they serve the fleet, the better their return. So, isn't that where we have to go from a value proposition standpoint that will align everything else? Is that if we
01:23:25
have common goals with our mining customers, with our Earth Mover customers on what drives >> performance and performance is value, right? The tires wearing wearing longer or getting lower cost per hour. That's the goal. And if if we're all collectively aligned on what the inputs are to make that metric better, >> then the value proposition is maximized. >> Yeah. And and the beauty about a model like this is that instead of having to purchase each new technological advancement in as a separate order, you
01:24:05
you can render them as options for cents an hour on on a fleet. So, say you want like tire monitoring or pressure monitoring or something like that. Once you get it down to this, you can say, "All right, well, for for an extra 36 cents an hour, >> you can get >> telemetry and and analysis or something." And and it's not a separate purchase. You just start baking it in to the to the surface. >> So, techwise, do you guys do VBOX studies? Do you do site severity? You
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guys are using the Conti Tech uh now. I mean, talk to me about the tech you guys use. >> Well, if we we still use because because I still think this is one of the most important things, the low tech option of a specialist who goes to look at the tire cuz cuz that's one of the things we can't do. You got to assess the state of the tire. Um but one one of the areas we've had a great success, especially in the port for us is using the Continental kit. >> Um the tire pressure monitoring systems
01:25:03
that they have, Conte Connect and the yard reader. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. The yard reader is a method of reading, but if you don't have the kind of infrastructure where a yard reader makes sense, >> they they also have per machine telemetry boxes that will that will read them as well, >> which are essentially just using SIM box providers taking taking readings from whatever and and and pumping it up to a system. And then we have access to that system as a dealer with the with the
01:25:33
support of the customer where we get to see we can respond to things if so if we see pressure alerts and warnings we can quickly respond to all of the things that you see. >> I I'm sure you'd have to get a spreadsheet out but just like ballpark what do you think the cost benefit analysises of that? I mean the what the pressure sensors cost what the the the kit cost that goes into the vehicle. Um, what's the return for the customer? Dollars and cents percentage. >> Dollars and cents. That's a good one. To
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split it out individually, I don't have it, unfortunately. I've got I've got some numbers for the complete service provision where it's baked in cuz the beauty about the Conti stuff is the tires come with the sensors in. >> Right. And >> once you've purchased a yard reader, >> So once you've purchased a yard reader, which is a couple of thousand dollars or whatever it is that it goes in, >> Yeah. the tires are part of the cost and and the ongoing running cost is pence
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per per hour anyway. So like the actual cost of the equipment and the data transfer is absorbed pretty quickly in into the service um that you save and the extra performance that you get. I have seen real um benefits in performance anywhere on different fleets between 40 and 60%. That's 40 and 60%. >> Yeah. in terms of tire management, >> in terms of life of tires, it's it's crazy numbers. If you got this kind of improvement >> in other areas, you you you just buy it
01:27:06
straight away. >> It's like it's like software. It's you just go, "Yeah, this makes total sense. Check the box." We we we more or less run a benchmark of uh 10%. >> Um just because there's so much there's so many variables and that's what makes it hard to do. But if I was pressed like I'm pressing you, I would say proper air pressure is going to improve your performance by 10% minimum. You're going to have a 10% lower tire bill on an annualized basis if you put the right
01:27:38
pressure in. So take your whole tire bill and this is what you are basically going to get a return on compared to what the spend is. I think that is a very um modest first entry into the number and and it will get you there and you'd never get in trouble for saying it >> because because because it would it would almost never be wrong and probably almost better than that. >> Yeah. >> Almost always slightly better than that. One one of the things above and beyond the tire pressuring system though is um
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I don't know if you've seen it. I I've enjoyed using it when I've seen it in action is Continental I think again have something called the Conte logger >> and that's telemetry. This this thing doesn't just do tire pressure monitoring system. It's got cameras on the vehicle. It's doing turning circles and engine speed and hours run. It's doing GPS mapping of the roots around the place. So it's because a lot of the time one of the things I've noticed as we've
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improved is the conversations we have about tires are getting better with our customers. So, so e easily one one year you might go, "Okay, well, they'll come to you go, we use these tires, but they're not performing as well as they used to and and and they'll go, can you have a look at what these tires are doing?" And and if you only look at the tires, it it never paints the picture. But then you look, well, you've replaced the fleet and and the new machines you're buying are heavier. They're
01:29:01
torquier engines on them anyway. And then and then it turns out to be nothing to do with the tire. you end up doing the the tire work with the machines and it's like well if you reduce the maximum speed of your vehicle from 10 to six kilometers an hour your tire performance will go through the roof and and it has nothing to do with with the with the compound of the tire or anything else that they're doing. It's just there's so many other variables. It's such a multivariate problem that
01:29:29
that that if you run the models through a lot of this stuff and and this technology now is giving you this. It's like they they run without breaks because a lot of industry now doesn't take breaks. They run these machines and sweat these assets heavily. They don't take cool down breaks at all. So they never cool down. So the tires are running at max temp all of the time. And then they're going as fast as these new machines can go. And then sometimes it's that old adage, you don't need to go
01:29:55
this fast. If you actually just bring the speed down, you're not going to get the work done any slower than you're doing now because you but you're doing less accelerating and braking by reducing the maximum top speed. And then all of a sudden, you see the life of the tires go through the roof. And people are beginning to have those conversations in a much more common manner now. They're way more frequent than they used to be. Instead of just going, "This this tire is no good. This
01:30:19
tire is not as good as it used to be." without looking at like, well, the machine's heavier, it's torquier, the engine's bigger, we run them faster, and we don't stop. We also have a brand new layout, which means we turn tighter circles. And and the idea that we turn tighter circles carrying heavy loads doesn't doesn't factor in because it's just a tire. But now we're having these smart discussions because the the different ways in which the the the performance is
01:30:46
affected are visually apparent. You can see them. They're easy. You can see the impact on you can see the heat build up and the cool down what tight turning circles do to a large machine carrying a container and so on and and that's just coming along now and I can't even begin to add all of the benefits that's coming up. I'm still working on the models for that myself. But they're fascinating to see. I love the tech that's that we're deploying now. Um and >> you got you guys are getting a lot more
01:31:15
than we're getting. I mean, when we chatted the other day, uh, what Kanti's deployed in Europe is five times what they've deployed in the US. >> Okay. >> U, they haven't even touched Earth mover uh, positions. It's maybe a little bit of truck here and there. >> Yeah. >> Um, it's shocking to me because I would think that would be the push. Um, and you're starting to see software companies out of Silicon Valley begin to tackle it because it's such a wideopen
01:31:45
gap. Yeah, I think so. The the big the big manufacturers, the only downside to the big manufacturers having the tech is that obviously it's in their interest to sell their tires. So, it's very it's very much a value proposition for their tires. But what we're seeing now and some great companies coming in and we partnered with one at last Atlas and we really rate the product is um is is a product that you can use that's separate just completely agnostic to the tire brand um and and get these systems
01:32:14
across. So for mixed fleets or for fleets that don't base their purchasing on one brand alone that they're using a mixed buying purchase for the right tire in the right place, you can actually start putting that through with a service provider instead of it being baked in at the manufacturer end. You can actually get a service provider solution on that instead. >> Having a brand agnostic solution is where the industry has to go. >> Yes. other otherwise it you're just not
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going to get there. >> Or maybe as I'm thinking about that, I agreed with you, but also maybe standardized gear attached to OEM. >> Yeah. Yeah. If if it if it can be like a TPMS like we see in cars, um it changes everything >> that you can latch on to and access and get the data from. >> So Trevor, we've been rambling for an hour and a half now. Um, I want to do this again, but let's do this uh with a deep dive into tech, like where it's at, where it's at now, and where we think it
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needs to go, and what uh uh what are our customers demanding that we've got to answer? >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. >> Uh I think I think we tie those two together for our our round two on this. Um because I want to I want to start tackling those questions for our customers. >> Yeah, I think so. I would love to and and we can I'll direct it slightly better because we've gone through several sort of depth first search rambles and tangents I think here. >> Yeah.
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>> Um but this is what we've done. TMC's been doing this for 40 plus years. You've been doing this longer. We've got lots to say I imagine about everything. >> So th this was a blast, Trevor. I loved hearing your story. Um, we're going to do this again. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you for your time. It's been a pleasure. See you, Trevor. Around the beat podcast. Tire talk for trucking, mining, agriculture, and more. Your home for fleet solutions. Aiming to inform,
01:34:36
pioneer, and entertain the tire world in connected industries. Sponsored by East Bay Tire, keeping essential industries moving forward.
